What Is It Worth?...Are the Battles Helping To Win the War?
In my first article concerning this subject I addressed the over reaction by some to the term of Preterist Idealism.
http://nate4onenation.blogspot.com/2006/11/my-thoughts-and-understanding-of_06.html
Despite the very civil over the phone conversations and chat room discussions which appeared to leave the discussion on civil terms, there are still those whom I call dear friends in the preterist circle that must rage against this new machine. This is very unfortunate because relationships have been strained for no purpose. And to what end? What is the real result of all this in-fighting?
Some claim they are defending truth. I submit they are defending their version of the truth. For many centuries the Jewish priests expanded on their own versions and interpretations of the truth, leading to the various factions within Judaism like the Sadducees and Pharisees. Then a man came along proclaiming that these holy warriors of Judaism’s version of truth are the ones who needed to repent. This was followed up by a man who proclaimed the kingdom of God was at hand. He taught that He was the way, truth, and life and that no man come to the Father but through Him. He did not say that He was going to answer EVERY question with the truth, or that there would not be any questions left for us to answer WITH OUR OWN CONSCIENCE!
Wasn’t this the point? That the laws of God in the hands of men were and would always be twisted? Hasn’t the history of the church for 2000 years proved that the laws of God in the hands of (so-claimed) “called” men have twisted the gospel? Now is it up to us correct preterist to set apart ourselves from other sincere brethren who love Jesus but do not agree on all points of theology?
Before some say that I do not believe in standing from truth, I dare them to look at my past (many of them were next to me when the “arrows” were flung). I believe in speaking what I have seen is the truth. I do, however, admit my fallibility and my past tendencies to be wrong. Weren’t all preterists wrong at one point in time? Have some forgotten they were wrong before, and may be wrong again?
The attitudes of dogma and judgment are getting us nowhere, and contradicting the very things many who are raging believe. There are no leaders who are called to be leaders to guide us into truth. There is only God and my conscience and the word as a guide! Period. So this attitude is only self righteous and self destructive.
What I have seen lately is not even about the preaching of truth, or whether Preterist Idealism is right or wrong, rather it is an argument against those who have stepped out into the spotlight to reveal what they believe is truth (or closer to it than other theologies have come thus far) and because they have done so, and not supported the Preterist status-quo outright. They have not upheld the banner of others who see truth through a different light, and so are excommunicated because their opinion is of another kind.
The arguments have not attacked the premise of Idealism, that all things physical are not the essence of the truth, but merely point to the truth itself. Preterism at its core says that the events of AD 70 fulfilled the prophecies. Preterism idealism says that AD 70 simply signifies eternal truths that were always in existence. The physical acts in history to show us these things does not create truth, it only reveals it.
So do we see articles debating this? Not so much as we see a call to separate from Todd Dennis because he said:
“Most people on Planet Preterist are practicing theological masturbation (self-gratification) " & that he would "wait until Planet Preterist was on its last leg & then come in & deliver the death blow".
AND:
“Consistency within the system is really what sets the newbies apart from the more experienced, generally speaking. Just like with Dispensationalism, one can believe that Jesus is King now, but if the system will not allow it, then they are just inconsistent, and
inexperienced within their own hermeneutic, not really representing it for what it teaches. The same is true, in my opinion, with that form of full preterism (most notably found among the Reformed) which teaches that everything was fulfilled historically by AD70, and yet that not everyone in the world enjoys its benefits.”
Prideful? Maybe. But why not argue the points made? Now I am not here to defend Todd, but when he makes these statements he follows them with many comparisons of what Idealism believes vs. what Preterism believes, followed by studies that depict the difference between temporal application and idealist application.
What do we hear in response to these things?
“Here we are practically begging this man to speak up & instead he dishonorably told us he'll wait until the battle is so dire, then he'll come in & deliver the death blow. If it was a
real battle on a field, I would not want such a man as an ally. What coward lets his friends take all the arrows & then comes in at the last moment to behave like he won the battle? A man sculpting a cult of his own making, thats who. I guess Todd thinks it is now time to deliver his "death blow" so he now uses the infestation of the preterist
universalism to declare the whole of full preterism so corrupt that it must die & -- wow! Todd is Johnny-on-the-spot to offer an alternative. Perhaps he will claim he doesn't care who takes up his new offering? Right, the man knows he commands the most visited site on full preterism & he would dare to pretend he is just expressing his "personal view"?
Many people are actually now really taking up Todd's new version of preterism, but why? Because men like him set back while the battle was raging & like a coward came in to steal away the war & the victory.”
And here is the crux of the complaint. Wounded pride.
I was one of those who fought side by side for truth. I took arrows! I still stand up for what I believe is the truth, but I am trying to become less judgmental about it. Lets DISCUSS the verses, the interpretations, and how they apply to our lives. But when truth fails the strong, the warrior, assassination by other means is necessary. In this an appeal to the preterist masses against a mans character. Someone whom I have found honest (to a fault), genuinely caring, and a good friend.
This is not some peoples war. Some have lost the taste for blood because it has done nothing to ADVANCE THE KINGDOM! Jesus did not teach denominational or sectarian warfare!! He did not authorize us to take His teachings and do violence to it. The wicked try to take the kingdom by force, and perish.
A belief in the passing of pastors, teacher, etc as a calling for the “church” has led nowhere. Pride has consumed these new “leaders” anyway.
I find it a shame. Both these men are my brother and friend. I myself am someone who my friends know do not jump into any view without due study. I have been involved in debates on the side of full Preterism for a long time now. Yet those who are on Todds side are “cowards,” etc. This is sad.
The fact is universalism is rampant in Preterism because Preterism has its inconsistencies that need to be dealt with. Todd is attempting to deal with them. If the devil is in the lake of fire, SO IS DEATH!! Either this is to be understood through a temporal timeline, and death DOES NOT EXIST just as SATAN does not exist! Or this is to be understood in an idealist timeline where these prophecies are only fulfilled INDIVIDUALY when one turns to Christ and is in the new covenant with Him. You cannot call the devil destroyed because he is in the lake, without doing that to death and sin as well, making universalism the ONLY consistent full Preterism.
This is no attack to current full prets, just a call for them to look into these things. Debate us on issues such as I laid down. Stop excommunicating every person who does not defend your personal dogmatic views. Christ said we would be known by our love. Only HE has the power to unite us in truth.
God Bless
Nate
In my first article concerning this subject I addressed the over reaction by some to the term of Preterist Idealism.
http://nate4onenation.blogspot.com/2006/11/my-thoughts-and-understanding-of_06.html
Despite the very civil over the phone conversations and chat room discussions which appeared to leave the discussion on civil terms, there are still those whom I call dear friends in the preterist circle that must rage against this new machine. This is very unfortunate because relationships have been strained for no purpose. And to what end? What is the real result of all this in-fighting?
Some claim they are defending truth. I submit they are defending their version of the truth. For many centuries the Jewish priests expanded on their own versions and interpretations of the truth, leading to the various factions within Judaism like the Sadducees and Pharisees. Then a man came along proclaiming that these holy warriors of Judaism’s version of truth are the ones who needed to repent. This was followed up by a man who proclaimed the kingdom of God was at hand. He taught that He was the way, truth, and life and that no man come to the Father but through Him. He did not say that He was going to answer EVERY question with the truth, or that there would not be any questions left for us to answer WITH OUR OWN CONSCIENCE!
Wasn’t this the point? That the laws of God in the hands of men were and would always be twisted? Hasn’t the history of the church for 2000 years proved that the laws of God in the hands of (so-claimed) “called” men have twisted the gospel? Now is it up to us correct preterist to set apart ourselves from other sincere brethren who love Jesus but do not agree on all points of theology?
Before some say that I do not believe in standing from truth, I dare them to look at my past (many of them were next to me when the “arrows” were flung). I believe in speaking what I have seen is the truth. I do, however, admit my fallibility and my past tendencies to be wrong. Weren’t all preterists wrong at one point in time? Have some forgotten they were wrong before, and may be wrong again?
The attitudes of dogma and judgment are getting us nowhere, and contradicting the very things many who are raging believe. There are no leaders who are called to be leaders to guide us into truth. There is only God and my conscience and the word as a guide! Period. So this attitude is only self righteous and self destructive.
What I have seen lately is not even about the preaching of truth, or whether Preterist Idealism is right or wrong, rather it is an argument against those who have stepped out into the spotlight to reveal what they believe is truth (or closer to it than other theologies have come thus far) and because they have done so, and not supported the Preterist status-quo outright. They have not upheld the banner of others who see truth through a different light, and so are excommunicated because their opinion is of another kind.
The arguments have not attacked the premise of Idealism, that all things physical are not the essence of the truth, but merely point to the truth itself. Preterism at its core says that the events of AD 70 fulfilled the prophecies. Preterism idealism says that AD 70 simply signifies eternal truths that were always in existence. The physical acts in history to show us these things does not create truth, it only reveals it.
So do we see articles debating this? Not so much as we see a call to separate from Todd Dennis because he said:
“Most people on Planet Preterist are practicing theological masturbation (self-gratification) " & that he would "wait until Planet Preterist was on its last leg & then come in & deliver the death blow".
AND:
“Consistency within the system is really what sets the newbies apart from the more experienced, generally speaking. Just like with Dispensationalism, one can believe that Jesus is King now, but if the system will not allow it, then they are just inconsistent, and
inexperienced within their own hermeneutic, not really representing it for what it teaches. The same is true, in my opinion, with that form of full preterism (most notably found among the Reformed) which teaches that everything was fulfilled historically by AD70, and yet that not everyone in the world enjoys its benefits.”
Prideful? Maybe. But why not argue the points made? Now I am not here to defend Todd, but when he makes these statements he follows them with many comparisons of what Idealism believes vs. what Preterism believes, followed by studies that depict the difference between temporal application and idealist application.
What do we hear in response to these things?
“Here we are practically begging this man to speak up & instead he dishonorably told us he'll wait until the battle is so dire, then he'll come in & deliver the death blow. If it was a
real battle on a field, I would not want such a man as an ally. What coward lets his friends take all the arrows & then comes in at the last moment to behave like he won the battle? A man sculpting a cult of his own making, thats who. I guess Todd thinks it is now time to deliver his "death blow" so he now uses the infestation of the preterist
universalism to declare the whole of full preterism so corrupt that it must die & -- wow! Todd is Johnny-on-the-spot to offer an alternative. Perhaps he will claim he doesn't care who takes up his new offering? Right, the man knows he commands the most visited site on full preterism & he would dare to pretend he is just expressing his "personal view"?
Many people are actually now really taking up Todd's new version of preterism, but why? Because men like him set back while the battle was raging & like a coward came in to steal away the war & the victory.”
And here is the crux of the complaint. Wounded pride.
I was one of those who fought side by side for truth. I took arrows! I still stand up for what I believe is the truth, but I am trying to become less judgmental about it. Lets DISCUSS the verses, the interpretations, and how they apply to our lives. But when truth fails the strong, the warrior, assassination by other means is necessary. In this an appeal to the preterist masses against a mans character. Someone whom I have found honest (to a fault), genuinely caring, and a good friend.
This is not some peoples war. Some have lost the taste for blood because it has done nothing to ADVANCE THE KINGDOM! Jesus did not teach denominational or sectarian warfare!! He did not authorize us to take His teachings and do violence to it. The wicked try to take the kingdom by force, and perish.
A belief in the passing of pastors, teacher, etc as a calling for the “church” has led nowhere. Pride has consumed these new “leaders” anyway.
I find it a shame. Both these men are my brother and friend. I myself am someone who my friends know do not jump into any view without due study. I have been involved in debates on the side of full Preterism for a long time now. Yet those who are on Todds side are “cowards,” etc. This is sad.
The fact is universalism is rampant in Preterism because Preterism has its inconsistencies that need to be dealt with. Todd is attempting to deal with them. If the devil is in the lake of fire, SO IS DEATH!! Either this is to be understood through a temporal timeline, and death DOES NOT EXIST just as SATAN does not exist! Or this is to be understood in an idealist timeline where these prophecies are only fulfilled INDIVIDUALY when one turns to Christ and is in the new covenant with Him. You cannot call the devil destroyed because he is in the lake, without doing that to death and sin as well, making universalism the ONLY consistent full Preterism.
This is no attack to current full prets, just a call for them to look into these things. Debate us on issues such as I laid down. Stop excommunicating every person who does not defend your personal dogmatic views. Christ said we would be known by our love. Only HE has the power to unite us in truth.
God Bless
Nate
posted by Nathan DuBois | 5:29 AM
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